Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Align for Impact. I'm your host, Matthew Naylor. I started this podcast because healthcare and leadership both come down to the same thing. Alignment. When people, purpose and performance connect, real impact happens.
On this show, we'll talk with entrepreneurs, brokers and change makers who are challenging what is broken in healthcare and in business and find new ways to make a difference for companies, communities and the people they serve.
Chris, welcome to the show. We have an amazing, amazing relationship. I love Healthcare Highways. I love what you and your company is doing. You know, as we get started here though, Chris, I really love to learn about you. You know, how did you get into the insurance business? Where did you grow up? How did you end up at Healthcare Highways?
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, great, great question. Thank you. And thank you for having me. We love Crumbdale as well. Love the partnership, love what we're doing together.
I grew up in Garland. I'm a native Texan. My family grew up in Garland. I went to the University of Texas, had aspirations to play professional baseball.
Didn't work out that way.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: So what position did you play?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: I played shortstop, second base, pretty much any. Any infield except first base.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Was that a family thing? Your dad got you into it? Your.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: No, I played every sport and just really excelled at it. I went to a Little League World Series when I was nine.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Really?
[00:01:33] Speaker B: And it was. It was just a lot of fun growing up. And when I went to the University of Texas, I decided that I'd better start thinking about my career.
And the only person in my family that really, to me was on track for the things that I was looking for was my uncle who was in the insurance industry.
And so I learned very quickly I needed to get my degree and get into that industry and learn more about it.
I got into that industry at the age of 23, a year after graduation.
And I was selling life insurance.
And selling's a very broad term. I was in the life insurance industry.
But I quickly had challenges selling life insurance as a 23 year old to other 23 year olds.
So I reached out to my uncle and he said, hey, the group benefits side, as an annual renewal cycle, you're not having to convince people to buy it. They already have it. You're just having to solve problems.
And we started a benefits firm back then, and then he, he grew that firm and it turned into a PPO network company, which he sold very successfully. In 2006, I went out and ran a brokerage firm, TPA.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: You started from scratch. It was like an entrepreneurial endeavor on
[00:02:52] Speaker B: your own or the Brokers, yes, but the TPA was already existing and I developed very similar to Crumbdale. I developed. We're going to sell a captive product. We're going to sell this as a captive salesforce and we're going to go out and distribute this product. And I'm going to be the sole distributor for your product in dfw.
Now, that's in multiple states. It's done very, very well. It's called Eben Concepts. It's out in North Carolina, it's in Georgia, it's in Florida, Texas, and it's doing very, very well. But that was my foray into the benefits space.
Then I did start my own benefits firm outside of that, that was broader in scope, that could touch BUCA plans and other programs. And then I sold that firm to Gallagher Dallas in 2008.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: How long did you run your own benefits agency for?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: 2000-2008.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Wow. What, what did you learn in that time period like that that's really like you were being an entrepreneur, you know, you were building your own business.
What was that experience like?
[00:03:54] Speaker B: So it was always about the relationships and the people, both your internal people and your customers. Right. It was always about serving their needs.
But as an entrepreneur, there's nobody that turns the lights on or gets the coffee or, you know, make sure the bills are paid. You do it all.
And that's a really big burden when you're trying to grow your business and run your business as a really, really small business. We were staff of five and we did a lot of work. We did exceptional work, we made a lot of impactful decisions. But those customers, I probably had 50 customers, they were friends, became part of my extended friendship. And many of them today are still really good relationships. But what I learned is not only do your customers rely on you, your employees and your staff rely on you every day, right? To get up, do the things you have to do. You have to be self disciplined, you have to be a self starter.
And really my reasons to exit, if I were to look back, were probably the wrong reasons.
ACA was passed, Obamacare was passed. And maybe it weren't the wrong reasons, maybe they were the right reasons now, but it was the burden that what benefits was, was changing. It was going to be more administrative, it was going to be more regulated, it was going to be more checking the box of are you doing all these things? You know, then they introduced mental health parity. It just became more about.
Less about solving problems and developing innovation and more about fitting into this new regulation. And I saw it as a burden. And so I looked for a large national firm that was going to take on that burden for me.
And I found out that that burden didn't really go away.
So that's where I really looked for something different and how I got into the startup of healthcare highways in 2013 with my uncle again, who had an idea to build high performance neural networks based on the Obama legislation that was really asking for the development of these programs in exchange based products and insured based products.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: And Chris, are you helped start and found with your uncle healthcare highways in 2013?
[00:06:05] Speaker B: 2013. He actually started the idea in 2010.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: With. With Alan Scoggins, Stan Dennis, board members, and Alan's our chief operating officer. They actually started the idea three years before we launched it, tested it, and they actually had a. The first network built.
Believe it or not, that a hospital said, we're going to pay you to sit this on the sidelines, really, because they weren't ready to be the first disruptor.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: It sounds like, Chris, your uncle has had an amazing impact in your life. You know, and my podcast is about alignment and it's about impact.
What's your relationship like with your uncle? And you know, you started with him, it sounds like you left him, and then it sounds like you came back to him. And you guys have like this amazing relationship and partner.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's fair. My uncle's been a great mentor to me. He's someone I looked up to from afar growing up, because one, he was a very talented athlete. He was on the 1980 Olympic team as a gymnast.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Really?
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah. He competed with Bart Thomas, Bart Connor and Kirk Thomas. Excuse me. And one of the best teams that never competed because that was the 80 Olympics in Moscow that didn't. That was boycotted by the Carter administration and so they didn't get to compete, but he transitioned that competition into the business sector. Right.
And really what I learned early on is he has a strong work ethic. He doesn't luck into things, but we're very different. And I think that space together allowed me to breathe and grow up in my own environment and probably appreciate that drive and that grit and that those aspects of him that were challenging early on. Right. And now we have a phenomenal relationship. There's a lot more mutual respect, there's a lot more admiration for one another and really complementary in our skill sets. We are very similar in some ways, but we're very different in other ways.
And I think the last 13 years have allowed us to really grow together and that relationship's grown both in the organization and outside the organization.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: That's amazing. That's amazing because that's true alignment and true impact, and that's the center, centerpiece of what I love talking about. You know, Healthcare Highways is a, you know, very unique, very distinctive business. Healthcare in the US Is fraught with a lot of problems, a lot of challenges, a lot of issues.
Healthcare inflation's a real thing. You know, consumers and employers are facing real problems. You and your uncle and your team and your board have built an amazing business. Can you, you know, what are the pillars of the business? What, like, simply like, what do you do and why is it unique and distinctive?
[00:08:52] Speaker B: So, number one, pillars, we all have to accept that healthcare is not operating optimally right now. Costs are unacceptable at rates that are continuing to skyrocket and escalate. Right. Transparency is lacking.
I love the new legislation that the Trump administration is pushing for more transparency across the sector of PBMs and health plans and networks.
So that fundamental premise is it's not good enough the way it is. We can make it better, like fundamentally. And what are we going to attack? We're going to attack the unit cost conversation of health care. It's the only industry I'm aware of where there is an inverse correlation to cost and quality.
Just because you pay more does not guarantee you any more value. Right.
Secondly, I don't know another industry where you don't know what you pay until after the service and it goes and gets billed and it gets negotiated down or repriced and comes back to you. Then, you know, actually, did you pay the full copay or is there other cost? You're not really told on the front. Here's the cost of your services, here's all that's included.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: And Chris, for the audience, that it's an easy thing for you and I to understand, but it's a very opaque environment and it's difficult for people, employers and consumers to truly understand what you're saying and what you mean. Can you be a little more detailed and a little more specific about the way the current system has been set up with very large insurance companies that own networks and very large health systems that partner with them and where that conflict exists and why it's not serving the consumer employer properly?
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Sure. And I'll just, I'll make it very simple.
When you walk into a department store and you buy a good, they're going to tell you what that price is, period. You either pay it or you don't. And you know what you're getting for that service. And health care doesn't work that way.
Hospitals will tell you their published price means nothing. It's just the starting point. Right. And if you go a step further, the reason there's varying charge masters has a lot to do with reimbursements of federal plans like Medicaid and Medicare.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: What is a Chargemaster?
[00:11:06] Speaker B: A Chargemaster is a published list of your prices for all your services at the hospital. Every single thing you have to publish annually what your Chargemaster is. Right.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: And why would Medicare prices be different than the commercial health care market?
[00:11:20] Speaker B: So government sets the reimbursement rates on what they're going to pay you for Medicare because it's a government sponsored plan.
And then they, you do have contracts on Medicare Medicare Advantage plans. But basically Medicare Advantage plans are plans that are taking over Medicare plans that are government sponsored plans for retirees and disabled people. And they're saying we can do it better and cheaper. But Medicare, the reimbursement schedule that the government sets becomes the baseline of measuring what your costs are going to be from a hospital or a health insurance company's perspective.
Now, how do we get to Medicare? There's a lot of diving into how we got to that, but let's just assume that's your cost basis.
Some hospitals operate efficiently below Medicare and some operate highly above Medicare. They're not as efficient. So the debate is should hospitals be able to all operate at a Medicare or below level?
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Is that truly because, Chris, from your perspective and experience that hospitals are run well and some hospitals are running, you know, poorly and, and lead poorly and they're just not operationally efficient.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: I think that's definitely part of depends on their, on their client mix too, and where they're located. It depends on the economics and the demographics of where they're located, the types of patients that they're seeing. Right.
It, it depends on how much investment they have in technology, but a lot of it is how well they're run, how well they're.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Does it depend, Chris, on the mix of business they have?
[00:12:50] Speaker B: It does.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: You know, not just demographic data, age, sex, industry, demographic data like R cities, but the mix of business, the commercial business, the blend of business that the hospital's doing.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. This is where to wrap this thought up is the government plans are what pay the most money to hospitals because there's more volume of that. Right.
Some people would say we already have a single payer system. It's the federal government through Medicaid and Medicare Advantage. But hospitals make their money on commercial Health plans. Right. That's why that payer mix is so valuable to him, which is the area we're tackling and is bringing more commercial profitable revenue to hospitals and also saving employers money.
How do you do that exactly? That's what we do. And the way we do it is we reconstruct networks that were supposed to be managed care networks, meaning managed care means there's some strategy around the care you're accessing.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: And when people hear managed care, an employer or consumer, I think they hear, you're going to force me to do something I don't want to do.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Can you help me help the audience understand what you do that's unique and different? Because I think managed care gets a really bad rap and it's misunderstood.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: I think you're right. I think the HMO world, that word was used a lot in the 90s and then there was a rebound back to we're going to have open access networks. Right. And that's where we are today, is as much provider access as you can have.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: So capitation in the 90s, HMOs and then PPOs and then open, do whatever
[00:14:37] Speaker B: you want, make as big as you want, let the consumer choose. But this goes back to our original conversation around quality and cost matching.
Members are going wherever, patients, wherever they want, because they have open access networks. They're not being guided, they're not being navigated to high quality, low cost. So managed care, if you want to flip it to navigation, is really guiding the member, where they should be going in where they need to go, not forcing them to go to a bad situation or allowing them to just go where they were referred. Right now there's no incentives in a lot of these plans to be guiding them to quality, to be guiding them to value.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: So let's, let's use some examples. Chris. You know, if, if, if I was going to get a knee surgery or I was going to get a back surgery or I had to get an mri.
Can you talk a little bit about your technology, the way you contract, how you build your networks, how you build your partnerships with hospitals so that the hospital wins, you win as the service provider, the consumer wins and the employer wins.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Right. So hospitals really have two things to trade for.
They either want to get more, obviously want more commercial membership. Where does that come from? It comes from their competing hospitals that are in the market, in their market.
So if they're getting 35% of the market share, people seeing their hospital and they can get 65, there's a value on that. Right. They, they've almost doubled their membership just by a narrow network configuration. What does that mean? If I exclude the competing hospital that's pulling that other 30% from them and I can redirect those members into their system, I can ask for a lower contract rate from that hospital. Why is that important? Well, lower contract rate means lower claim costs, means the employer pays less. It means less member out of pocket. We can offer lower co pays or no co pays to the members.
So each part of that cycle, the hospital, the provider, the employer, the member, the patient, they all win. And that's what we do. We bring value to both the system and the employer. And I think the model's always been to pit the hospital against the employer through the insurance company. And really point the finger is the insurance company. The problem is the hospital. The problem.
What we believe in is if we have the conversation with the providers and the employers together, we can fix the problem. Right. Employers are the buyers and consumers of most employer sponsored health plans and their members are the customers. And if we can build a solution where they have lower cost, the hospital gets more profitable revenue on commercial business, even at a lower rate, it's better for them, then we can start to build solutions that are scalable and repeatable across the country.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: This doesn't sound disruptive to me. There's lots of things in the marketplace that like reference based pricing and there's a place for that too in the market. But there's lots of things that are in conflict with hospitals, you know, with employers, with consumers. It sounds like to me what you're building is something that is truly a win win in the marketplace. How, how big is the company today?
How many employees do you have on the team?
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Healthcare Highways is about 130 total employees.
We have three offices or actually four now. Kansas City, Louisiana, Baton Rouge, Oklahoma City and Frisco, Texas is our corporate office.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: And it sounds like you've invested a massive amount of time and money into this business to get it to where it is today. You know, what are, what are like, what markets are you in? What hospitals do you have the best partnerships with? Where do you, you know, where are you truly differentiated?
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah, we're, you know, full statewide in Texas, we have a full statewide network in Oklahoma, full statewide network in Louisiana. We've just opened up Kansas City Market last year. We'll be building out that market throughout the rest of Kansas, hopefully parts of the rest of Missouri.
We're looking at Midwest expansion, Chicago area. But really when we invested in technology over the last eight months, 18 months, we can go to any market. What health care highways started as was a network entity.
We've really evolved. Where we are back rooming networks or hospital networks in Florida, in San Francisco, in New York City, all across the country, where our labels know we're on the network, but we're operating it. What, what do you mean by that? We have to load contracts, we have to populate a directory search, we have to ingest claims from a administrator called third party administrators. We have to take those claims, reprice them to the contract, send them back to the TPA so they can then process those. We do that all throughout the country. So we're not limited to where we just own networks. So networks is a vertical, but also direct contracting, custom solutions for hospitals and large employers is another vertical.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: And have you, have you actually partnered with some health systems in markets to really bring something at a lower unit cost?
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say the greatest example was the Kansas City market was three hospitals that partnered together with us and we formed an entity called Centrust Health Direct. And we stood up 43,000 members January 1st after starting the company the first of last year. And that was a phenomenal success. But it was because we got all the synergies of the hospital committed to the vision and we totally disrupted the market. And when I say disrupted, we introduced new competition that didn't exist 12 months ago.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: And who were, who was the big player in that market? Who had that market share that you
[00:20:30] Speaker B: were really blue kc.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: And throughout last year, I don't know that it was anything related to what we did.
They had an affiliation, an alliance formed with Highmark Blues and they're looking to create new solutions for that market because we severely impacted it. And I think they see that change is coming and they have to change and evolve as well.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: And it sounds like to me, Chris, that you've invested a lot in technology where the hospital is getting more members, they're getting paid faster, their consumers getting a lower cost, the claim is being adjudicated faster.
Can you be a little more specific about your technology? Because there's like in network claims, there's out of network claims. Again, it's a very messy process that I don't think the employer or consumer truly understands.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: No, they don't. And I don't know that a lot of us understand it either. But so when, when a claim comes in the door, it runs through different clearinghouses to get to where it needs to go. And every time you have to run through a funnel There's a click fee, there's a, there's a cost.
When you send data, there's a charge and when you receive data, there's a charge and so forth. So when technology would come in the door, it would go to the third party administrator or the TPA or the insurance company, then they would send it to the network. That's a click fee. We'd reprice it against our contract or we'd run it to see does it match one of our contracts. If it did, we'd reprice the claim to the contract amount, send it back to the tpa. Then they do all their adjudication work on what is the benefit level, how much are we supposed to pay? And then they pay the claim and they send an eob, an explanation of benefits to the member and the provider.
But if it didn't hit a contract, it would go back to the tpa. Then where did it go? Well, then it went to an out of network vendor. Another click fee. Right click fee in, click fee out click fee to out of network. They would reprice it to an out of network fee schedule or reference based pricing schedule. Click it back in. Then a TPA adjudicates the claim, Right. And if there's a mistake on either side, it runs through the process again. Right. So what we've built as an environment, it goes in one click. If it hits the network, it reprices. If it doesn't, it reprices to add a network and it goes back, it stays in a single environment.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: How much faster is that, Chris?
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Days. Days. If not, you know, you have 30 days to typically reprice and pay a claim to ensure the contract.
If it's not done in a timely manner, providers can say that contract is null and void. We're doing this 99% first pass, first run. So one day.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: That's incredible.
Chris, you've taken this company from 2013 to here we are in 2026.
You've had this amazing growth, almost like hockey. It's been a little slow with some of the things that you've done because you've had to put a lot of effort and time and energy into building what you've built. But your company's at an inflection point now. Healthcare in this country's at an inflection point. What has you most excited? Where do you see this business going?
[00:23:33] Speaker B: If I were to be honest, I say we're in all 50 states, right? We're probably overseas as well.
We've explored that there's opportunities for networks Even in Europe, in other markets, it's very expensive to build networks. It's very expensive to go out and contract. You're also at the response time of the providers, which they have other things to do besides contracting with a new network.
And so the philosophy of going out and building networks and then going out and trying to get membership was a very expensive model that delayed our growth.
So for example, we would go out and build a network in Texas, then we would go find a Crumbdale and say, hey, go sell our network. But that takes time, right? You got to build a marketing strategy, you got to go out and sell cycle, you got to communicate it, you got to get it repriced with stop loss and all those things.
And where we really saw our inflection point is we said that's a really bad business model long term.
And what we decided is we've got to get partner buy in because the one that has the most to gain is actually the provider hospital system.
We're increasing their number one payer mix that they need is commercial revenue and they're getting a higher percentage per customer of that mix because they're in a narrow environment.
So let's get their alignment and get them to put their employees in. And that creates the mass volume that you need to justify the build. But it does something else that's really, really important. It gives brand awareness of the network because they are the providers themselves.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: So you've got marketing through the providers, through their own health plan.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: And we took off with that. So where I'd like to see that is we talked a lot about the keynote speaker about AI. We're going to use agentic AI to help us think about expansion, contracting, train it to go out there and do this in large volume so that we can scale faster, scale quicker. But there's no reason that every single market in this country should not have a hospital. What we call direct to employer strategy, which is being a part of a network that has nothing to do with an insurance company. It is completely unbundled, completely transparent and completely aligned with programs like Crumbdell that go out and sell value that plugs into an ecosystem that's scalable and repeatable. That's where I'd like to be with health care highways. Not as much worried about the brand being out there, but I'm more worried about changing health care and challenging the status quo because it's unacceptable.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Chris, how, how many members do you have today? Like employee lives? How big is the business?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, members we're probably approaching a million.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: We've got over, you know, we've had about 390,000 in just Louisiana alone. We do a lot of Medicaid networks in that market, believe it or not. We do a lot of contracting around ma. We've got a lot of exchange membership in Oklahoma, but a lot of our membership is commercial employer plans and that is growing at a very rapid pace.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: And when you say commercial employer plans, you mean level funded, self funded, high performing captives. Captives. That's, that's. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: We even have a small group fully insured product in Texas through an insurance company that uses our network. But, but we don't care what the product is. We're just going to be the network that plugs into that. But we touch any product. Our network can be utilized.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: You know, Chris, I've been an entrepreneur for 30 years. I love, I love, love speaking to entrepreneurs. You know, it's, it's hard. You're the president of the company. Every day you get pulled in many, many, many, many different directions. You know, how do you, how do you spend your time? How do you focus? How do you lean into the business? How do you drive and advance the business to have al?
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Well, I think being at impactful conferences like this is a great place to spend my time and see what's going on in the market and stay ahead of the curve. But I spend a lot of my time with my, with my key partners, my vendor partners, my key TPAs, my key employer groups, my hospital partners.
I spend a lot of time leading the sales team to make sure that we're touching the RFPs that we're working, the ones that we can impact that we're not wasting our time on the ones that are not good fits.
We don't hope and pray anymore. When you're a young company, you work everything.
It's a very inefficient model. And so what I'm spending my time on is what are the things that we can move the needle on right now?
What are the holes that we have that we need to fill? And sometimes that includes me getting involved with it, building solutions for us.
Sometimes that is rethinking about the structure of, is this the right model to scale to serve our customers? One of the biggest things we decided last year is we had a very expensive phone system and we were using about 10% of it. And so we got rid of it and we just went to a zoom based phone system and saved six figures.
But we also analyzed the types of calls we were getting and we realized we were spending 76% of our time on calls we should have never got that should have got to the tpa.
And so I researched that and spent the time of why are we getting those calls? You know why? Our phone number was first on the ID card, not the TPAs. And I'm like, well, that's obvious. They're calling the first phone number. Let's take the phone number off. Why does our number need to be on there? Providers call us, they should be call members should be calling the TPAs, the crumbdales of the world. They shouldn't be calling healthcare highways. And so we've seen our call volume go way down. We've seen our redirection calls because we were redirecting 76% of the calls go way down. And we've redeployed that staff to be doing more meaningful claim resolution, claim research than what they were doing answering calls that they didn't need to answer.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Chris, I've loved this conversation. I admire what you and your team have built. I see how it's lowering cost and producing better outcomes, creating a better experience. Transparency is needed so much in our industry and driving to a lower unit cost, you and your company have done that. It's an amazing thing. What questions have I not asked?
What should I have I asked?
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the biggest challenge that we face is we have to empower and educate employers to understand they hold the power to change the health care system.
They're the buyers, they're the consumers. We can be as innovative as we want. But until employers truly take ownership of buying their health plan, not their consultant, they buy their insurance, they will understand that they're unlocking so much power, inability to affect change.
And I think that's why I like to go out and talk to employers and educate them of, you own your data, you don't need to ask for it, you need to demand it. Right. You need contracts that support transparency. You need to be working with vendors and solutions that support transparency that push that information to you. But I always say employers are better consumers because they're the actual consumers, their money.
Do you let other people balance your checkbook at home, right. Or do you spend your own money and balance your own? If it's your money, you should be spending it, involved in the decision and making the final decision. And a lot of them don't. And I think a lot of it's out of fear and a lot of it is trusting a third party that's got their best interest. And there's great consultants out there and they do a really good job. But at the end of the day, the newest thing that's emerging in health care and started with 401k, now it's in the PBM sector and it's coming to a place near us in medical and that's fiduciary liability.
And fiduciary liability says in an ERISA plan and self funded environment, you should be making the best decisions in the best interest of your members.
And if you're not involved in that decision, understanding where the money's flowing, you're going to have some risk. And I think that's the part of the industry that once that comes out and there's legislation being proposed right now that will affect more than anything else we can do because then they will be more interested in our solutions, they'll be more open to say there's a cheaper option out there. Why did you not make that available to me as an employee? Right. And we're seeing member sue plans today on the PBM side. We saw the Johnson and Johnson lawsuit, saw the Home Depot lawsuit. And so I would just really encourage employers that we talk to and I know we, you, we and you and I work through the broker community, but I don't think it has to hurt the broker. I just think it needs to put them next to that employer to say you really need to be engaged in this decision. You really need to listen to what Crumbdale has to say or what Healthcare Howie's has to say because that level of transparency is coming to our world.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Chris, I've loved the conversation, I've enjoyed it immensely and I appreciate the partnership.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah, this is Matthew Naylor. You've been listening to Aligned for MT Packed.
